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Makotosun

[Help] with my '73 DT3 250, having ignition issues

  • 19stuberd
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Sorry! Forgot the link. It's same as before - photos.app.goo.gl/6jgCeySzinjXLGHRA
22 Jan 2023 17:08 #31

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  • 19stuberd
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That's great! I never considered that there would be no valves to worry about, that really makes it a much more attractive option. I may just cheat and use the depth gauge on my calipers, indexing off the top of the cylinder instead of mounting a dial indicator. That multimeter tip is a good one silva, I'll have to give that a try! Also when you wake up @RT325 I have attached the link now so you can tell me where this tab is you are referring to with respect to the beautiful circles I drew. Also any thoughts on the coil thing are still appreciated. Thanks again everyone!
22 Jan 2023 17:17 #32

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Ok, the ORANGE circle in the last pic. I expanded the pic up & can see the broken tab remains. Top right screw & orange circle. Also set your spark plug gap about 22 thou, don't go wide like cars have.
Sorry if i'm talking over the top of people at times. I might be slowly typing away & someone gets there faster haha, so what i'm saying might look like i'm saying it against them, but not the case--just my ideas.
I must say you're not afraid to get stuck into things, which is great. Bit hard to be sure in one pic but make sure that the wire feeding the points is 'not' touching the steel & is sitting against fiber washers & the bolt also has a small piece in the middle to stop any chance of the bolt moving sideways & touching earth.
Look in one flywheel window & the notch should be visible. On the top side of the window, just a narrow shallow original mark or groove.
Last edit: 22 Jan 2023 19:02 by RT325.
22 Jan 2023 18:52 #33

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Be interesting to know the voltage you're getting at kick speed & at drill speed. I'm not sure but might be able to get a proper reading by putting cardboard in the points so they don't contact, then put an AC volt meter on the black up top disconnected from the plug coil. Black or whatever color it's become now you're changing wires. I'm still thinking in the end that the source coil isn't putting out enough, but purely my guess.
22 Jan 2023 19:09 #34

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  • 19stuberd
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Sounds good! I have looked at the stator and now I see what you're talking about. I actually found a piece that was on my spare stator that seems to resemble the one that broke, so I took the liberty of attaching it myself, pictures in the album at the bottom. Let me know if the configuration looks right to you or at least similar to what you might expect. What I might do today is take the bike into the machine shop at my school and use an oscilloscope there and maybe a tachometer to find out what the voltage output is across various ranges. While I'm there I might also just use one of their dial indicators and feeler gauges to set the points gap too. It could be a big day today! Wish me luck. Thanks again for the help, talk to you later!
23 Jan 2023 08:22 #35

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So everything you're talking about is in the factory manual.
All of it. I know that because I have a DT3 and downloaded the manual from this site. Don't assume anything where bikes and other folk are concerned. Half the time they talk out of their arse ! 
You need to set the timing to set the points. It goes through the process in the manual. A tip for you as well . Wrap insulation tape around the blades of the feeler gauges so the magnetic parts don't grab them.
It's a frustrating task until you get the hang of it.
If you have feeler blades you can set plug gaps . I learned that when I was 8 years old.
A good you tube clip to watch if you haven't already is one by Jason Scot ,DT 250 timing. A later bike than yours but the principal is exactly the same. 
I take it you're in the US so find a Clymer manual for your bike in hard copy form. Brilliant.
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23 Jan 2023 09:52 #36

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Yes that's the timing tab I wasn't sure if it was spot welded onto the coil. But that one is bent. So back to school--, you're going to need to find 3.2 btdc & then align--bend the tab for it to be able to be relied on in the future. I guess you discovered the mark-groove in the flywheel that you align with the tab. With the angled plug hole it might be easier at this stage to just use a piece of bronze welding wire--or something--& get it as vertical as you can in the angled hole. Find tdc then go back to 3.2 & make two marks, one at tdc & one at 3.2. Someone showed a neat setup once using a clothes peg & bent wire down through the peg spring. I just use bronze wire like i said. I like to keep it simple if pos. 250's are pretty forgiving & won't explode if its not perfect.
Last edit: 23 Jan 2023 12:36 by RT325.
23 Jan 2023 12:33 #37

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  • 19stuberd
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Hey everybody! Yesterday was an extremely busy day, six hours of work on the bike. I took the bike 45 minutes to my school where they had some good equipment, and I checked for the first time the points timing. You guys were right, popping the head off was laughably easy which I would not have realized had someone not mentioned it. I made a couple of score marks to mark the point of contact closure and then put the head back on afterwards, video shown for you guys, it's in the album. What I found is that the points were indeed incorrectly timed, the way they were configured there was only .008 thou points clearance at TDC and the point of contact was occurring at .9mm below TDC. After about 17 tries, I managed to get them bang on at exactly 2.9mm below TDC like the manual says. Awesome! Please let me know if you think that's enough to cause the bike not to work or not.

I also checked the spark plug gap and that was off too! Set it to .22 from .28 or something like that, all of the numbers kind of blended together but I know it was pretty off and it's not off anymore. All of this work, however, and still no spark on kick.

Then it was on to the real reason I went to the school: The $15,000 oscilloscope. I took readings of various conditions of the bike, rotating at various RPM ranges with the drill as well as kicking the bike manually, taking readings with both the points covered and points uncovered. The main problem that occurred, however, is that the oscilloscope only recorded 10 seconds of the data. I didn't expect this and so I did long test runs where I would start in the low RPM range and increase with kicks (the important part) thrown in at the beginning or end. I figured that I would be able to contextualize the data later given the bigger picture, but now it's proving a bit difficult to determine what's what. I also took off the flywheel at the end to find that the thing wedging the points open may have fallen out during testing, which I think it did.

Let's take a look at the data! Images in the album, all labeled in the top left for your convenience. photos.app.goo.gl/6jgCeySzinjXLGHRA

I have included seven graphs of the seven saved files in the album. The first one looks like it shows me kicking it, but that's just me using the drill and it slipping off. The second one appears to be me kicking it WITH points, but there's a catch that I'll explain. 3 and 4 seem to be duplicates, and it looks like it's just the tail end of one session of me cranking it with the drill, not terribly useful. Five is also me cranking with the drill. Seven is when I realized that the points may have been uncovered (it looks like they were) and so I covered them more reliably and did the same test as before (drill then kicks) but it only caught two kicks in the test.

In images B and C (showing graph 5) we can see that the voltage is consistently at 18v or so at about 630 RPM with some spikes above 30 and 40 volts. Image D (also graph 5) shows voltage at around 22v at about 860 RPM. Image E (of graph 1) shows the readings from a standstill, starting at about 420 RPM where it generates about 12.5 v and then increasing thereafter as the RPM increases. Image F (of graph 6/7) which is kicking with no points shows an initial reading of 10, increasing to 20, and then diminishing afterwards.

This is where things get strange. Image G shows what I think is me kicking the bike over with points functioning, and it looks interesting but most significant is the fact that it is registering a maximum of 3 volts. I don't know if this is a bad reading or if this is my problem being illustrated before my very eyes. Not sure what to make of all of this! I may go back down and do it right this time. Let me know if this is an expected voltage range for a coil and what you guys think.

Thanks for the long read! I hope the data is useful, I have it all in case there's some maniac that wants to see it themself. I can't wait to hear what you guys think! As always, thanks a million times for the help.

 
24 Jan 2023 13:27 #38

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I don't want to ruin your day but 360cc are 2.9 & 250cc are 3.2btdc. Won't matter a lot in the grand scheme of things--slightly retarded, another few thou gap would bring it up. Lot of technical stuff to read there so i'll do it tonight but might be a bit beyond me lol. Great you have gear at school to use. Man high-school was never like that for me--in 1960 haha.
Actually i think the high compression version available in DT1--gyt kit & MX in "71-ish was 2.9btdc without looking. Don't panic--does it run is the important bit.
Last edit: 24 Jan 2023 14:31 by RT325.
24 Jan 2023 14:22 #39

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  • 19stuberd
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I think I said in my essay of a post that it does not run, somewhere under all of that text lol
25 Jan 2023 04:38 #40

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