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Makotosun

Bubble, Bubble, What's the Trouble

  • bradocross
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Bubble, Bubble, What's the Trouble was created by bradocross

Most frustrating stories start with, “I bought it on ebay and it looked so nice”….
But really, I bought this (cosmetically) nice cylinder and head on ebay for my CT2 restoration project. The guy said, “it’s in great shape and will take a standard piston”. Well, it's pretty worn out so I was all set to buy a 2nd over Yamaha piston and have it bored (yes, it’s that worn).

So, I’ve got my rebuilt bottom end on my freshly powder coated frame and I put the top end on to do a leak down test. I’ve got everything blocked off, spray it with soapy water, pump 6 psi into it and discover bubbles coming from the head gasket (granted it’s a used gasket). I take the cylinder and head to my machinist and he tells the head looks fine but suggests that I lap the top of the cylinder.

I get it home and wet the back of some 320 grit sand paper, tape it to my piece of glass and slowly polish away. Then comes 400 grit, then 600. I put it back on the bike and it’s still bubbles, using 3 different head gaskets (that I've annealed) and two different heads. So, I take it off and do some more lapping. Now the top surface of the cylinder looks better than NOS (like glass).

I put it back the cylinder back on the bike and it still bubbles. Now I’m getting frustrated, so I grab my old, crappy, petrified with who knows what, deeply gouged cylinder off the shelf and try that one and it does not leak (WTF!) I chose not use my new head gasket on the ebay cylinder because I didn't want to bugger it (and the crappy old cylinder did not leak with any of the used ones I put on it).

Now I’m thinking of looking for another cylinder on ebay (oh no, not again) and remember someone had mentioned greasing a head gasket before you put it on. I had mentioned this to my machinist and he looked at me funny.

Well, long story short, I installed the “nice” looking ebay cylinder with a freshly greased head gasket and, “voila” the bike held 8psi for an hour without some much as a single bubble.

But greasing a copper head gasket seems counterintuitive. Grease liquifies when hot and a running engine gets hot therefore, when I run the bike the leak will return.

So, before I go out and buy a 2nd over piston and pay to have this cylinder bored out I’d like to clear this up. Should I or shouldn’t I assume this cylinder will work?
19 Jan 2021 17:39 #1

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Replied by Midlife Motor on topic Bubble, Bubble, What's the Trouble

Have you tried the copper spray they sell for spraying on copper gaskets and mating surfaces?
It's better to remain silent and be considered a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.
19 Jan 2021 18:20 #2

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Replied by Midlife Motor on topic Bubble, Bubble, What's the Trouble

It's better to remain silent and be considered a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.
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19 Jan 2021 18:22 #3

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Replied by bradocross on topic Bubble, Bubble, What's the Trouble

Isn't that like putting a bandaid on a bigger problem though?
19 Jan 2021 22:27 #4

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Replied by Pete-RT1 on topic Bubble, Bubble, What's the Trouble

Had the same thing on my CT1-C recently.
www.yamaha-enduros.com/index.php/forums/...restoration?start=70
MarkT (he knows a thing or two) advised that I anneal the gasket, which I see you've done and use the copper spray.
I checked both cylinder and head for flatness and low spots by coating the mating surfaces and then rubbing them on my dead flat quartz worktop.
Even though I was confident that the flattening of the head and cylinder I had carried out was good I still used the spray.
It seems like a good product made for this application so it's not like you're bodging it up with a load of sealant.
Yamaha CT1-B
Yamaha CT1-C
Yamaha AT1-E
Yamaha AT1-C
Yamaha CT3
1978 Yamaha DT175MX
2020 Honda CB500X
20 Jan 2021 00:59 #5

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Replied by bradocross on topic Bubble, Bubble, What's the Trouble

I'll pick up a can and see if it solves the problem.
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20 Jan 2021 07:58 #6

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Replied by Pedalcrazy on topic Bubble, Bubble, What's the Trouble

I assume you were sanding the cylinder and head on your piece of glass in a figure eight motion like the service manual shows? If not, then even best intentions could just be making it worse.
1978 DT400E
1976 DT400C
1973 RT3
1971 RT1B
1968 DT1 (3)
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Last edit: 20 Jan 2021 11:28 by Pedalcrazy.
20 Jan 2021 11:27 #7

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Replied by RT325 on topic Bubble, Bubble, What's the Trouble

Yep, always grease all my gaskets unless there's a prior leaking issue in clutch cover or base gasket but always grease head gasket. Goes back to the very first CB350 in about "69-"70 when i replaced the head gasket. Not sure why i had the head off but anyway. Went to start it & it squeaked & leaked everywhere just turning on the starter. Workshop foreman "old fella" said did ya grease the gasket. Said No as had a sort oil film on it that looked like it was meant to bond it. So in desperation i loosened all the many head nuts & a couple of short bolts & put oil in both plug holes. Plugs back in & either kicked or starter can't remember. Oil shot out through the gasket. Bolted it up tight & was perfect, sealed up & no leaks of either compression or oil.
Anyway--woffling on--i did wonder if you had a porous cylinder in how the cast in liner is mating to the alloy. A mate of mine did a pressure test to an RT1 & oozed out everywhere up through the fins. Never did hear the outcome of that as the bike had a bad habit of melting pistons.
20 Jan 2021 12:58 #8

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