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1969 AT1E charging/lighting issue.

04 Jan 2020 17:39
RT325
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1969 AT1E charging/lighting issue. #11
Short answer--No but hopefully an electrical guru will come along, but sounds terminally ill. Was more thinking to be sure the Gene is putting out voltage [albeit uncontrolled voltage] incase you have more problems after spending a small fortune on a new Regulator. Bit outa my expertise sorry. But to run up our 6 volt Generators going back more than 50 years ago i think we would just hook the two terminals together then to a bulb & bulb to earth. HELP--someone must know out there.

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04 Jan 2020 22:04
MarkT
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1969 AT1E charging/lighting issue. #12
Not enough information to comment about the regulator being good or bad.

First step in the troubleshooting process is checking the generator output itself by basically bypassing the regulator. They tell you how to connect the generator wires to "full field" the system, running the engine and measuring voltage output at generator (being careful not to rev too high)... Process is explained in detail in the manual.

If generator itself is working properly, then you can move on to testing the regulator.

1963 YG1-T, 1965 MG1-T, Allstate 250, 1970 CT1b, 1971 R5, 1973 AT3MX, 1974 TS400L, 1975 RD350, 1976 DT175C, 1976 Husqvarna 250CR, 1981 DT175G, 1988 DT50, 1990 "Super" DT50, 1991 RT180, 2017 XT250

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06 Jan 2020 12:08
Bradshaw
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1969 AT1E charging/lighting issue. #13
Hi Mark,

Do you or anyone else here know the difference between these two regulators?

One seems to have what appears to be condensers mounted on opposite sides of the housing and the other has them mounted on one side of the regulator housing. The first one shows it's off of a 1971 Yamaha at1. The second one indicates it's for a 1970 Yamaha AT1 125 Enduro. Of course both ads for these regulators say untested...

The cross reference numbers indicate part number for both is 444-81910-10-00 and this is the same part # my 69 AT1-E calls for, but my AT1E has the same arrangement of the "Condensers" as the 2nd image seen here. Could I use either if they're in working condition? Electronics gives me the heebeegeebees and I don't want to fry anything. To recap, I have tested the regulator per service manual and it shows no volts after starting, with the red wire disconnected and attached to the positive probe, and the negative probe grounded.

So what is the difference between the two and is it OK to go with either?

Thank!

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07 Jan 2020 00:04 07 Jan 2020 00:05 by Gr8uncleal. Reason: more text
Gr8uncleal
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1969 AT1E charging/lighting issue. #14
I think that this question might have been raised before, as I already had the pictures saved that I was about to save again!

I suspect that there was a part supersession and that therefore both parts are fine, albeit that the later part might be slightly "improved".

Please see attached two images for the 1969 AT1E from the CMSNL website - one is the exploded parts diagram and the other is the part that they currently have for sale. You will see that the part in the diagram is the early version, but the part for sale is the later one. The part number is the one that you quoted.

I hope that this helps.

Alan

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07 Jan 2020 02:21
MarkT
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1969 AT1E charging/lighting issue. #15
I'm still wondering if the first troubleshooting step of bypassing regulator and checking generator output was done and what those results were...

(Condemning the regulator without checking the generator output first is a little like replacing a dead starter motor on a car without checking to see if the battery is dead. Starter can't work if battery is dead. If generator is dead, there's no voltage produced for the regulator to regulate and it will test bad. )

These voltage regulator systems are not really "electronic"... they are a pretty robust system of old fashioned "mechanical" points relays. Condensers (capacitors) are probably there to keep points sparking suppressed. Cleaning the points might be all that's needed.

The regulator was updated/superseded over the years... but as Alan said the same regulator fits all the 1969 to 1976 (and maybe beyond in countries outside the USA) 125 Enduros with the starter/generator.

1963 YG1-T, 1965 MG1-T, Allstate 250, 1970 CT1b, 1971 R5, 1973 AT3MX, 1974 TS400L, 1975 RD350, 1976 DT175C, 1976 Husqvarna 250CR, 1981 DT175G, 1988 DT50, 1990 "Super" DT50, 1991 RT180, 2017 XT250
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07 Jan 2020 04:18
shyted
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1969 AT1E charging/lighting issue. #16
Yes i agree with checks in isolation and the system.
Unless you've already done the checks i suspect there will be an Ohms check that can be performed on the windings of the generator to see if you have gone open circuit.
You could check output by simply getting help with someone kicking the motor over ( Fuel off carb empty) so you will see an output ,so then you will be seeing the feed to the reg rec.
The biggest tip i would say is break it down into individual components then circuits untill you come up with an answer.
Read read read and then read again. As Mark said,this bike comes from a time when " Solid state" transistorization was leaps ahead with Japanese manufacturers and is bloody robust,and remember VD = voltage drop so check all connections and earths.

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07 Jan 2020 07:07
MarkT
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1969 AT1E charging/lighting issue. #17
The generator puts out DC... no regulator/rectifier... and not sure you'd see any output kicking it over. They don't put out much at lower RPM. Factory troubleshooting procedure is good and requires the engine running...

Also no real "electronics". Sometimes this type of regulator was called a "Voltage relay". Basically just two electromagnetic relays and a few resistors. Generic diagrams below. (the electromagnetic relays are replaced with transistors and circuitry in a "true" electronic regulator... this design predates true electronics... similar to how mechanical ignition breaker points were replaced by transistorized circuits.)





Brushes are important... In my limited experience of these systems 9 times out of 10 it's something like the brushes or commutator needing attention when a bike that was charging and starting stops charging. Sometimes a relay gets "stuck"... I've usually seen that only on one that's been sitting a long time. Sometimes relay points get corroded or burned.... often can be cleaned if not burned too bad.

And again, the only way to figure out the "no charge" problem is to disconnect the generator from the regulator and test for generator output first. If generator itself passes the output test found in the service manual, then you can move onto testing the regulator...

:Buds

1963 YG1-T, 1965 MG1-T, Allstate 250, 1970 CT1b, 1971 R5, 1973 AT3MX, 1974 TS400L, 1975 RD350, 1976 DT175C, 1976 Husqvarna 250CR, 1981 DT175G, 1988 DT50, 1990 "Super" DT50, 1991 RT180, 2017 XT250

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07 Jan 2020 11:12
shyted
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1969 AT1E charging/lighting issue. #18
Yes ,this kind of set up is on my Copco compressor.

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07 Jan 2020 17:31
Bradshaw
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1969 AT1E charging/lighting issue. #19
Hi Mark,

I think you hit the nail on the head. Earlier today I ordered a used regulator, $15. special off eBay. Then came back and read your post about checking the dynamo first. (Whoops) Anyway I checked the dynamo output and it only seemed to be putting out about 1 volt. This test was done via page 103 on the service manual. But I noted when I disconnected the F screw (green wire) there was black wire under it. I'm not seeing that black wire behind the green wire anywhere in the manual. So I did the test with the black wire attached and without it being attached. Same reading, about 1 volt. Service manual says it should be doing about 10 volts. Gak!

Looks like I will be checking the brushes next since I have yet to do that. If I have to eat the regulator or at least I will have a spare, if the one from ebay works.

Question, should I pull the brushes out without removing the entire armature? And to remove the armature, is there trick to removing that large center governor bolt? FYI, I've never pulled brushes out before but I see the round springs which I assume holds them in place. I plan on taking my time doing this since I lack the experience.

Thanks Mark, and everyone else who provided advice!
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07 Jan 2020 19:08
MarkT
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1969 AT1E charging/lighting issue. #20
Brushes come out without pulling the whole thing apart...

Here's a Capt Dave photo of the stock wiring...



and another one where I added labels.





.

1963 YG1-T, 1965 MG1-T, Allstate 250, 1970 CT1b, 1971 R5, 1973 AT3MX, 1974 TS400L, 1975 RD350, 1976 DT175C, 1976 Husqvarna 250CR, 1981 DT175G, 1988 DT50, 1990 "Super" DT50, 1991 RT180, 2017 XT250

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